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Black Folks don't have a monopoly on dialogue about Blacks
Submitted by truthtold on Tue, 05/08/2007 - 4:56pm.
I have read with great interest the phenomenal dialogue about issues of race and ethnicity and ethnic identity on the comment Fattah made about Nutter.
I would like to offer two points.
First, I have noticed that the context of stop and frisk scares many African Americans I talk to. Many, being the operative term. Many African Americans of all classes have a strong fear of the police. So empowering them to stop folks at random scares people. (I am not saying that this is the policy, just a perception.) This is very true among younger African Americans. However, a lot of older African Americans think that this is the greatest idea since sliced bread. (Very few 60-80 year old church going folks driving late model Buicks liable to be targeted, perhaps.) But many think that this is the kind of step that needs to be taken, b/c they are the most scared by violent crime. While there is a lot of data about how this may or may not have worked in other cities, be clear, that many African Americans, even in those cities, are scared to death of the police having that type of power. Also, few cities have the legacy of Rizzo as a backdrop for discussing increases in police power. So the perception of racial profiling is what causes the concern.
This intersection of competing ideas in the Black community is a critical point in this election (Conservatives for Nutter, Liberals for Fattah.) Violence runs through the Black community. Shootings, murders and little prosecution. A very odd -- national -- movement against testifying is causing an increase in crime. Popular hip hop and culture has glorified violence. (No more KRS One inspired Stop the Violence movements, its all RAM Squad. You may have to google those.)
So as a bizarre result of the post-Civil Rights Movement's fight against police brutality -- best typified by the Black Panthers -- the police feel powerless to police poor neighborhoods, b/c they lack the tools to do so.
So the post-Civil Rights black intelligentsia is caught in a Hobsons' Choice -- support personal freedoms at the risk of safety, or argue that safety trumps possible violations of Civil Rights. (It's like the Patriot Act debate in the Black community.)
What this debate highlights is that many African Americans, while they may vote religiously for Democrats, are not all liberals or progressives. Philadelphia has a unique opportunity to provide via a campaign test, of a longtime black Congressman with liberal series of campaign promises or a more fiscal conservative promising law and order, who is also an African American elected official will resonate in the black community.
The second point that I wanted to make is what concerns me is that there are fewer commentators of color on this site given the candidates and the topics of discussion. (There should be no massive outreach movement, the site is open to all.) The only concern that I have is that I have seen posters -- whom I assume are not people of color -- cite their inability to critique Nutter's comment or Fattah's comment b/c they may not be black.
Let me offer my advice: Being black does not give you a pass on saying things about other black people -- nor can whites or others not have useful things to add. You did not have to be black to see that Don Imus' comment about those young basketball players was uncalled for. You did not have to be white to think that maybe he should get his job back. (I hope that other members of identity groups will agree -- as there seem to be a lot on this site.)
We have to get out of this racial balkanization that traps our minds -- even in a debate of ideas -- where ideas are delimited by race. While I agree that the personal is political, as most post Civil Rights post-modernist progressives, I disagree that the political has to be personal. Your racial/ethnic identity does not have to color all.
I understand that this is hard in a day in age where so many people, some black, some white, make obvious racial attacks and accuse those who point them out as using the race card. It's painful to see Dr. King quoted by those who would have opposed him. But, bad ideas and thinking cannot be allowed to grow in the petridish of intolerance, protected by racial boundaries.
This election, above the issues, gives a real opportunity to examine how everyone can participate in a multiracial democracy where your race does not define what you believe or who you support, and can be a model to be studied and quoted for other cities, political subdivisions for years to come. Hopefully, to prove that the same City than could be so divided by Rizzo/Goode can have an intelligent dialogue about similar issues with less rancor.
Nothing New About Splits Over Law and Order Issues
There is nothing new about splits over law and order issues in any community--black, white, Asian or Latino. I well remember my father's stunned reaction to a community meeting he attended in 1967 when the overwhelming black organization he addressed expressed enthusiastic support for Mayor Tate's proclamation calling for early curfews in many black neighborhoods as a means of dealing with the threat of riots.
As a veteran labor and civil rights attorney who was well aware of civil rights issues, David Cohen thought an 8:00 p.m. or so curfew for people living in specifically defined neighborhoods that included the overwhelmingly majority of the city's black population and only a very small percentage of the city's white population was constitutionally suspect. But very few if any of the people he addressed that night agreed with him; they felt the threat of riots was real, and that the Tate-Rizzo approach of riot deterrence was a realistic one. In winning an upset re-election victory against a young district attorney named Arlen Specter, Tate steadily gained among both blacks and whites with the law and order approach.
Tate's victory led directly to Rizzo's mayoral victories in 1971 and 1975. Over a quarter of the black population of Philadelphia voted for Rizzo in each Democratic primary, and each general election. Rizzo was by far the weakest general election candidate among black voters nominated by the Philadelphia Democratic Party from 1932 through 2006, but he still retained over a quarter of the black vote through 1975. That support evaporated in his charter change bid in 1978, and his comeback bids in 1983 and 1987. It evaporated, however, over issues of police brutality,political patronage, private sector job losses, inflammatory rhetoric, tax increases, and political corruption.
The vast majority of Philadelphia crime victims are black, especially victims of violence. There is now, and always has been a strong streak of toughness against criminals in the black community which co-exists with the knowledge that criminal justice system tends to treat black criminals more severely than white criminals.
Running for District Attorney in 1987, Ed Rendell swept black communities and white communities alike with promises "to get tough on crime and tough on police brutality." He must have conjoined crime and police brutality in the same sentence many, many times in that successful campaign.
It is a mistake to think that progressives are as a whole against tough criminal sentencing. The vast majority of people--across ideological lines--wants policies that actually deter crime and believes that tough sentencing is part of that.
The areas of debate are areas of detail: How many years for a given crime? What should be policies for probation, parole, and relieving prison overcrowding? What are the best ways to fight recidivism? When should DNA results lead to new trials of convicted criminals?
"We have to be smart on crime as well as tough on crime," Dwight Evans has repeatedly said. I doubt either his fellow mayoral candidates or many voters disagree with that.
Running for District
I thought Rendell ran for Mayor in 1987? He ran for DA in 1977.
Typo Police Get It Right!
You are absolutely right that Rendell was elected DA in 1977, and was defeated for Mayor in 1987!
Not Pretty - But Honest...
Good Post Truthtold. Black folks don't have a monopoly on dialogue about Black folks...unfortunately we do have a monopoly on experiencing a particluar kind of discrimination in America that comes with a history rooted in the "peculiar institution" of slavery. So, as much as the egghead in me loves the kind of intellectual debate that your post engenders, there is a very personal component to my reaction and comments because they are based on very personal experiences. I won't even try to speak for all Black people, so I'll just give you my personal thoughts on a few things and be as candid as I can.
1. Why more black people don't engage and comment on this site - Quite frankly, I'd been following the posts on this site for months but was reluctant to join because the perspective often seemed so one sided. Part of me felt like jumping in just to add another perspective, but I was reluctant to because after a while I get tired of explaining my perspective, point of reference, or frame of reference as an African-American woman to (predominantly) white people. It's tiring. For many professional African Americans like myself who work in predominately white environments, we constantly traverse two different worlds. After a while it becomes exhausting...so there you have it - not pretty, but honest.
2. Nutter/Fattah comment - I'll make an attempt to explain...African-Americans who personally identify with social/political issues typically associated with the Black community often view comments like Nutter's with suspicion. Condoleeza Rice made a similar comment at Stanford when confronted by Black students and she responded "I've been Black all my life" and the students nailed her for it. No one has to point out their "blackness" and when that happens it usually means that the person is being confronted with difficult issues that they are unable to or just don't want to tackle. Instead of dealing with the substance, the typical retort is something akin to what we heard from Nutter last night. The difference here is that instead of this taking place within an all Black group it took place in front of a predominantly white, political insider live audience (of course not including the television viewers) - who clapped enthusiastically at a comment that African-Americans would typically view with disdain. Fattah's response is what would typically be voiced if the scenario played out within an all Black group. Instead the live audience - again - predominantly white, political insiders - responded with booing and hissing. I have spent a great deal of today talking to other Black folks to see if the reactions were similar to the outrage on this blog and other blogs. The results of my completely unscientific and informal survey are that every Black person I talked to - except one - said something on the order of - "Nutter walked right into that one" - OR - "Nutter had that coming to him". These are people who do not follow politics closely and are not necessarily Fattah supporters. These folks viewed the exact same incident with a totally different perspective from many on this blog. I'm not even going to get into whether either comment by either candidate was "right" or "wrong" because the point I'm trying to make is that just like every other race or ethnic group, Black folks use certain codes, morays, etc with one another that those who are not Black are generally not privy to. And for many African Americans, as soon as someone starts talking about how long they've been Black - it usually sends up a red flag...again - not pretty, but honest.
3. I'd love to get into the discussion of class within the Black community and the liberal/conservatve dichotomy within the Black democratic community...but my 4 year old (who still isn't in bed yet is begging me for snacks) - so maybe I can jump back in on this issue some other time.
La-Toya Hackney
Chairwoman, Fattah for Mayor
Thanks for your post,
Thanks for your post, La-Toya. The only issue I would raise is that I'm not sure whether you mean to or not, but you tend to talk about "black folks" in a monolithic way, as though all African-Americans use and understand the same "codes" in the same way. (In my experience, this has never been the case.) I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "African-Americans who personally identify with social/political issues typically associated with the Black community often view comments like Nutter's with suspicion." It sounds, again, like some attempt to draw a line around one subsection of the black community and identify it with the whole -- anyone outside this group (again, apparently including Nutter) just doesn't count.
Very not pretty
La-Toya,
I agree whole heartedly with your point about the lack of diversity of view point on the site. What do you think the community should do to encourage minority engagement?
With respect to Nutter reaffirming his blackness and Fattah’s comment, I took Nutter’s comment to mean that he as a black person has an interest in preventing racial profiling because he has been the victim of it and any policy endorsing it could affect him in the future. That seemed substantive enough to me. Perhaps you are right, and Nutter “opened himself up for that one,” but I feel as if it cheapened Fattah to take the bait.
Nutter’s racial identity has been assailed over and over again in this race. Maybe you could provide some insight as to why? Because he is perceived as not having a commitment to social services? Because he is articulate and very well educated? Would you be offended as a black person if a white person used those criteria to define you as “not black?”
America still has a severe racial divide. But I would hope that don't have to settle for that being "just the way it is."
This is it for me for tonight-
J.Young -
Due to the sensitivity of these issues and my position as Chairwoman of the Fattah campaign it would not be appropriate for me answer your questions about Nutter and racial identity. However, after the campaign (and once we've all had a chance to recover!) maybe we can unpack it a bit. Also, it's not that I'm "right" as to whether Nutter "opened himself up for that one". I just found the reaction from the black people that I spoke to last night and today to be in stark contrast to many views on the blogs and in the media.
As for how I'd feel if a white person used those criteria to define me as "not black" - This is another sticky issue to explain because I don't have to guess. It actualy happens to me pretty regularly. It's been happening to me for most of my life. But I'm just too sleepy at this point to describe my feelings about it and remain coherent. Let's plan to talk about this after the campaign too if you're still interested.
On the racial divide - we absolutely do not have to settle for this being the way it is. We just keep working at it. This is why thoughtful dialogue is essential and just reaching out and spending time with people who are different is essential and truly the only thing that will make a difference in how we treat each other. I follow a few blogs but I have only posted on this one because it does not deteriorate into insults and useless nonsense (at least not usually! :-).
La-Toya Hackney
Chairwoman, Fattah for Mayor
PS - Let's just keep trying to encourage more people to participate. I'm telling my friends about it and I have noticed that as we get closer to the election more people are jumping into the fray.
That's fair
Thanks for the response.
Let me try again, La-Toya
I'm still curious about why you characterized the comments on this blog as one-sided.
Were you saying that because the majority of posters are white you were reluctant to contribute, or were you saying that there was some other uniformity of perspective that you were reluctant to confront? (For what it's worth, although the majority of posters are white, I don't see how that means that they are somehow uniform in their perspective.)
The reason that I'm asking is that I am very interested in seeing increased political dialogue take place in this City across racial divisions. Obviously, racial division is a key factor in preventing real and productive change from taking place, (the history of racial/political division in my neighborhood, Germantown, is particularly troubling to me). And while a blog is obviously not the only, or the best, vehicle for promoting cross-racial dialogue, I do hope it can be one vehicle - so I'm curious about what presented as an obstacle to your participation earlier.
D.E. II
FYI - I'm not ignoring your question at all - I've actually been thinking about it and plan to reply. But to do so thoughtfully (and candidly) will require more time than I can spare right now but I will respond a little later. Thanks.
La-Toya Hackney
Chairwoman, Fattah for Mayor
Thanks, no problems
take your time. Increasing the diversity of this forum is going to take a while anyay.
Dear La-Toya, I've got to
Dear La-Toya,
I've got to take issue with some of the things that you've said in this post. I've been reading this site too for a long time and have held back entering the fray. But this is really just too much. I am a 27 year old Black woman living in West Philadelphia. I work a full time job with one of our hospitals and go to school full time. I spent a year volunteering with City Year and another year working with a Beacon program in Olney. I go to my neighborhood meetings--I know all of the people on my block--I've been to Zoning Board meeting to fight the next liquor store/half-way house.
I guess I am that "African-Americans who personally identifies with social/political issues typically associated with the Black community". And I take real issue with what Fattah said in the last debate. No one needs to "remind" me what it is to be Black when I'm afraid to come home from work past midnight--every night. Nobody needed to remind me that I'm Black when I was spending what little I got in my Americorps stipend on food for my first and second graders--in a Black community--because they weren't getting enough at home or school. Nobody needs to remind me that I'm Black after I've seen some of our most promising young Black men join the army because they can't think of any other way to pay for college.
And you know what. Nobody better remind me that I'm Black when I tell them that I'm voting for Michael Nutter. Don't tell White people on this blog that comments like these are acceptable in the Black community, and Fattah's just saying what we're all thinking. You didn't come and knock on my door. And I take offense to someone who WORKS and probably gets paid by a political campaign speaking on behalf of the millions of African Americans living in this city. Speak for yourself, but you shouldn't take on that mantle.
I know I'll probably get slammed here for writing these things, but I'd be upset with myself if I didn't. I'm 5 months pregnant with with a child whose going to have to go into the public school system, who's going to have to walk these streets, and try to keep his head above water. I've got to think for this next Black child, this next Black man. That's my motivation. I'm not even going to ask what's yours.
To Be Clear
I specifically state that "I will not even try to speak for all Black people" and that I offer my "personal thoughts". None of my references to Black people are in absolute terms. The purpose of the post was to offer another perspective on the exchange. In fact, in a follow-up post I stated that there's no absolute uniformity.
There's no reason for you to get slammed for posting your personal thoughts which enrich the dialogue.
La-Toya Hackney
Chairwoman, Fattah for Mayor
ps- i am paid staff
I work for Fattah and i have said so many times before. La-Toya however is not. She spends hours of her own time helping out because she wants to elect Fattah and believes in him.
In what sense, La-Toya
do you see the dialogue here as often being one-sided?
Just to clarify -
Not every black person identifies with the socio-political issues typically and historically associated with the black community which is precisely why I made the distinction. I was illustrating how one group typically reacts to another group - within the same race. I was merely trying to give a snapshot of how I've seen the Nutter/Fattah exchange play out time and time again within all Black settings. This is not about value judgments such as who "counts". As for describing black folks in a monolithic way - I said at the start that I won't try to speak for all black people but there are certain codes, etc. that a large number of black people share. Many (but certainly not all) Black people feel connected to others by a sense of shared experiences and I would imagine that to be the case within other communities. Obviously there is no such thing as absolute uniformity here...this is so awkward to explain via blogging, but there is value in dialogue.
La-Toya Hackney
Chairwoman, Fattah for Mayor
I think what I'm concerned
I think what I'm concerned by is how you define "the socio-political issues typically and historically associated with the black community" -- or rather, here, the lack of a definition -- and also what it means to "identify with" these issues.
I definitely agree that there is a set of common experiences and often common interests which create a connection between most if not all African-Americans -- but it's not at all clear to me that this translates to the same symbols being read in the same way because of this connection. In particular, how one calls attention to one's race, and the nature of the response to that call, doesn't at all seem to me to have in common the meaning that you attribute to it.
Actually, I didnt need to google it. : )
...some of us are old enough to know KRS One!
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working for Ellen Green-Ceisler for Judge
Olivia Nutter's Dad is Black
The dialogue was very helpful in shaping some of my own thoughts. A couple of points.
1. To La-Toya's point about reading prior to posting, it took me a while to post on this site, b/c it seemed like a lot of folks had a shared set of experiences that led where sometimes variations on a theme. (Sort of the feeling that La-Toya conveyed.) That overwhelming theme is that the current political structure was corrupt, stupid and sucked. There was/sometimes is a vicious bit of political spin between candidates that colored debate.
I know a lot of the folks in the current political structure, and disagree that all of them are corrupt, stupid and suck. Some of them are. But some are hard working folks who just happen to have a good faith disagreement on the role of government. (Where I would see private action, they would see government stepping in.)
Also, there is a lot of harsh attacks of existing incumbents, because there are a lot of challengers and their representatives. So as a result, there is a lot of conversations that cast the opposition as hacks. (Frank DiCicco, Anna Verna, Darrell Clarke, Donna Miller, Dan Savage, as examples.) So it is a little discomforting to step in and have a point of view that is not "pro all out reform". But I saw Stan Shapiro and Lou Agre's posts, and figured that there was more diversity of thought than I expected.
2. Black folks I talk to are not offended by Fattah's comment about Nutter. However, lots of my white friends were shocked. Odd juxtaposition.
3. Fattah's campaign knows, I believe, that Nutter can't be over 25% and he win. (A realization that I think that they should have come to a long time ago.) Nutter is pretty popular in Black communities. So you will see attack ads against him. (Politics is a contact sport.) I just don't think that racial appeals against him will work. He is a black guy and the litmus test for "blackness" amongst Democrats is pretty irrelevant. (A side from that, I really believe that black folks voting for others SOLELY for the sake of voting "black" is over. Black folks want safe streets, trash picked up, and city services like everyone else. (Perhaps a comment on the post Civil Rights Movement which has focused on racial slights when the community is asking about things that effect them daily.)
4. Barring Huey Long's boy/girl in bed analysis, Nutter's got it this time. The biggest reason. His daughter. That ad was a masterstroke, insulating him from all else. He seemed to be the only candidate that was actually struggling with the issues most voters were, taking his kids to school made him seem like everyman. The point that the commercial made about him being the only candidate to have kids in the public schools was overshadowed by the point that he was the only candidate that seemed to have young kids at all. (I know Fattah does as well.)
Aside from that, to say Nutter is not a black man, when I saw his daughter and wife in their home, and they looked black to me, humanized him in a way that is going to insulate him from future attacks.
5. Most people do not choose candidates on position papers. Its a vibe thing. A feel, if you will, that the candidates are authentic and represent their take on life. People say, they "get it". I think that a lot of African Americans feel like Chaka Fattah could get it. A lot of whites feel that Nutter gets it. What surprised me, was how few white voters felt that Brady got it. (People like Dwight, but not enough to vote for him for Mayor, yet.) But its a feeling of the campaign.
What Chaka did not do enough of is put a face on his campaign like La-Toya's. People would feel it. Nutter put his daughter on his campaign. People were feeling it and that will probably carry him all the way. (But I previously said that Nutter couldn't win, so take that with a grain of salt.)
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I do not work for/support any candidate for any office in Philadelphia.