- Council Committee Passed the Freeze
- Carol Campbell Passes Away
- My first trip to the public library
- Fight digital exclusion
- What if half of Philadelphia didn't have roads?
- You know, let's not even worry about the City Commissioners office messing up voter registration processing
- Bold ideas to fix the budget
- Mayor Nutter's Town Hall Meeting Schedule
- City Releases Library Information to City Council
- Size of Philadelphia government?
Let's help SEPTA spend their cash
Submitted by Dan U-A on Mon, 07/23/2007 - 9:22am.
The Inquirer has a list of how SEPTA plans to spend their money:
Fare collection. SEPTA plans to eventually replace its outmoded system of tokens and paper tickets with the kind of electronic system already in use in many other U.S. and foreign transit operations. Vending machines at stations will dispense reuseable electronic fare cards. But when? Moore said SEPTA would further study the systems other cities have before proceeding here. Last year, SEPTA shifted $3 million intended for planning a new fare system to daily operations. An additional $19 million is earmarked for fare-system upgrades by 2010.
New buses. SEPTA wants to buy 400 new 40-foot buses with automatic bus-stop announcements, bicycle racks, and other improvements. They may be diesel-electric hybrid buses, depending on cost. SEPTA has earmarked $160 million through 2010 and $450 million more through 2018 for the buses.
Subway station upgrades. To improve the deteriorating, 75-year-old Spring Garden and Girard stations, SEPTA plans to spend $30 million in the next two years on new lighting, signs, wall, floor and ceiling finishes, elevators, and an audio-visual public-address system. SEPTA shifted $5 million out of this project last year.
City Hall Station renovation. The busiest station on the Broad Street subway is also one of the dingiest. SEPTA plans to spend $22 million over the next three years to brighten, enlarge and modernize the 80-year-old station. SEPTA diverted $1 million for this project in last year's budget.
Regional Rail power. To reduce train delays and improve service, SEPTA plans to spend $66 million over the next three years to begin replacing power-supply substations. SEPTA diverted $8 million from this project last year.
Station safety. The "smart stations" project is supposed to improve passenger communications, safety and security with new audio-visual public-address systems, fire-suppression systems, and robbery alarms. About $56 million is earmarked through 2010 for the project, although $10 million of that was diverted last year to operations.
In other words, the basics, which sort of makes sense in terms of capital projects. In reality, unless we get a regional tax, or a big bond issue or something, we are not going to be able to truly expand the system.
So, let's help them out a little bit. What are they missing, that will not be totally cost prohibitive?
And, who wants to help Ray organize a Rider's union?
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SEPTA funds
my understanding from that article is that the those 6 projects account for 27 million of the funding 58 million capital funds. The leaves 31 million in capital funds and 156 million in operating funds.
Fare Collection
i think the update to the fare collection system is a much needed improvement.
Bus Stops - location
i would like to see some money go to changes in bus service - so instead of buses stopping at every corner, they could stop at every other corner. this simple change could improve quality of bus service without serious impacts to accessibility/mobility. This program was actually tested out last year, called 'Transit First' and according to one Inky article - rider's hated the program. (For an interesting read - see "'Faster' 52 bus halted by irate SEPTA riders" by Dan Geringer 2/10/2006). that said, i think an similar program with improved outreach and
Bus Stops - Signs and Info
i would like if every/some bus stop had the bus schedule and map of the bus route. The Center City District installed maps at the bus shelters downtown, but it would be nice to have improved signage throughout the city.
In addition, it would be nice if train/bus stops had information about the location of the next bus. this information is already gathered by SEPTA. They have GPS on each bus (and to some extent the trains) and at their control center they can track each bus' current location. this is valuable information for their operations and it would be surely be valuable information to every rider. imagine coming to a bus stop and seeing that the next bus is 10 blocks away (or 4 min away). you would no longer have to do the dance where you go into the street and look back along the route to see if you bus is approaching in the distance. oh to dream!
I think there are so many simple steps SEPTA can take to improve their existing services to make them frequent, dependable, and friendly.
that said, i'd be happy to join/help organize a Rider's Union. I may be able to find other opinionated volunteers as well.
Straphangers and Bus Riders Union are good models
When I was working with the Area Coalition for Transportation (ACT), that pressed for SEPTA funding in the 90s, I came across two exiting organizations that are still a driving forces in NYC and LA.
In NYC, PIRG has organized the Straphangers:
http://www.straphangers.org/aboutus.html
And in LA, there’s the LA Bus Riders Union:
http://www.busridersunion.org/engli/index.html
ACT was not a SEPTA riders union but had a critical mass of rank and file SEPTA riders who were members. If you check out the above links, you’ll see that a riders union can accomplish lots.
riders unions
I think that a transit rider's union is a great idea, however i think that you/we/i/them need to first decide what is the purpose of the rider's union
The BRU, in LA, is part of the Labor/Community Strategy Center is "a multiracial "think tank/act tank" committed to building democratic, internationalist, Left social movements and challenging the ideological, economic, and political domination of transnational capital." (quoting from their website).
Straphangers is part of the New York Public Interest Research Group.
I appears to me that there are similar groups in most major cities - but they generally have a specific agenda. Many of them also appear to have started due to a crises or specific issue.
just some things to consider.
Can someone who's been around longer
Can someone who's been around longer remind me again what the problem is with the 30th St El/trolley stop? Like what's the deal with the existing connection to 30th Street Station and why it can't be open?
Also, I don't know what exactly is in the works for the City Hall station, but the Suburban Station concourse thing needs to be radically revamped. Viable stores need to be consolidated in location, unneeded corridors need to be blocked off completely, etc.
Place is really really dangerous and dangerously confusing to people that aren't super familiar with it. I've had multiple female friends caught in semi-dead ends and deserted corridors while being followed by strangers down there.
Thank god the urban planning phase of affection for underground malls has died. Anyone ever been in Les Halles?
Jennifer
30th St El/trolley stop
Jennifer:
The connection at 30th Street Station to the El/trolley was closed by SEPTA years ago due to security concerns. I do not recall there being a major incident, rather I believe that SEPTA just gave up instead of dealing with the issue by a design or security change. Every time I go to Union station in D.C. and transfer to the subway there after walking from the AMTRAK part of the station I get annoyed thinking how Philadelphia once had the same type of connection.
30th St El/trolley stop
Jennifer:
The connection at 30th Street Station to the El/trolley was closed by SEPTA years ago due to security concerns. I do not recall there being a major incident, rather I believe that SEPTA just gave up instead of dealing with the issue by a design or security change. Every time I go to Union station in D.C. and transfer to the subway there after walking from the AMTRAK part of the station I get annoyed thinking how Philadelphia once had the same type of connection.
there's a connection there?
I always figured that the subway was built so much after the train station that there was some impediment to joining them. Certainly, routing people up and down stairs, not to mention through a busy traffic zone, is ridiculous. Open the tunnel, and find some other way to keep such things safe!!
-- sound of banging head --
acm
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
— Margaret Mead
sure is
you can see the enatrance to the tunnel underground when you get off the el and walk up the steps to the sort of mid level (where the token booths are). the other end of the tunnel came out right below that weird bar when you first walk into the station from the most sw corner.
Suggestions and clarifications
Yeah, wasn't that article really boring? "Regional Rail power grid"--ambitious!
If I understand Jennifer's question correctly, I second her suggestion that Septa build an underground connection from the El to 30th street station.
Now that they have the funding, I'd like to see them roll back the on-board fare charge if no ticket office is open. I was not against the fare increase, but penalizing riders because a Septa can't staff their own ticket offices is patently unfair.
I hope they don't cheap out and choose the more environmentally detrimental buses. The smog is bad enough in the city.
While I like the idea of a Riders' union, I'm not sure if it would fly with Regional Rail passengers. I recently moved from CC to the burbs, and the thought of boycotting Septa to force their hand on a particular issue makes my skin crawl, primarily because the only way I could get to work would be to drive. I'm probably on the magnanimous end, and even I'm on the fence about it, purely out of self-interest. I can assure you that the average RR commuter would be even more reluctant. Regrettably, everyone who lives in the burbs bristles at the U-word anyway!
Now that we have a dedicated source of funding from the state, it seems like the next best step is to work on getting a regional tax Dan alluded to. Can someone remind those of us who haven't lived here for a while (15 months myself and counting) what the hurdles are associated with that? Are the counties prevented by law to subsidize Septa, or do they not want to do so?
Nah, even crazier
Why I asked for someone with greater local/institutional memory than me about it is that I am pretty sure that the connection ALREADY exists, just for some reason (staffing, safety, stupidness, who knows) they don't have it open.
It's maybe not the highest priority in the world, but going from the El to the regional rail in the station is super annoying, since half the exits from the subway stop put you out in a pedestrian no-man's-land of parking lot where iron fences block you in at every turn.
Re: the riders' union, I think (though I haven't thought it through as much as Ray or some of the people involved in the negotiations) it'd be an attempt to use our (meaning city residents') organized weight to help counterbalance the phenomenon you're talking about (underepresentation of the city and suburban disinterest about the urban portion of the transit sysstem).
Jennifer
Hmm, it sounds like from
Hmm, it sounds like from your comments that there is lots of friction between city and suburban residents that I wasn't aware of. Even though I don't live in the city anymore, I don't mind getting taxed to fund things in the city, since I use the city for work and play. But I guess I'm in the minority.
Maybe Septa could appropriate the majority of the $150 million, and Phladelphia county taxes, to finance city transit projects only; after all, Philadelphia is the epicenter of the region and therefore its transit system should be the Cadillac of that region. Then, the counties could raise taxes independent of the new source of funding to improve RR transit. So, if Montco wanted to raise taxes to fund transit, but Chesco didn't, tough titties for Chesco. Don't like 5 million people live in the metro area surrounding Philadelphia? Doesn't seem like a tax hike would be that draconian.
I am just thinking out loud and probably uttering embarassingly naive things because I just moved to the burbs and I haven't quite figured out the politics, which unfortunately tend to get in the way of brainstorming.
Not unduly naive!
"Cadillac of the system" is good! Better than the sad but descriptive, "SEPTA: We're Getting There."
Someone else more knowledge can fill in the specifics, but my understanding is that representation on the governing board is way skewed to the suburbs, which is why our Cadillac status goes unrecognized and underfunded.
Jennifer
SEPTA Board
Fifteen members. Two from each of the five counties (Philly, Montco, Bucks, Delco, Chester). Five appointments from the Guv, House Maj Leader, House Min Leader, Senate Maj Leader, and Senate Min Leader. I believe there are three Philly residents sitting on the current board.
In no particular order
* Basic cleanliness + upkeep. For the most part, there's nothing wrong w/the existing stations on the BSL that regular cleaning + maintenance wouldn't fix. Of course, some have been w/o regular cleaning + maintenance for so long that they need a more general overhall (Fairmount Station on the main BSL is an excellent example). Of course, upgrading the remaining 2-platform stations (N. Philly, Girard, + Spring Garden) to more modern design would be good as well, but let's take care of the lower-hanging fruit first, and that means the stations which are less expensive to address.
* Alternate block bus stops. This has been mentioned repeatedly, so no need to elaborate.
* Modern fare collection. Due to the age + extent of SEPTA's system, this will be very expensive, but it needs to happen eventually.
* Phase out all conventional diesel buses + replace them w/diesel-electric hybrids. This is a no-brainer; which is why SEPTA will probably never do it.
* Have schedule of bus or trolley arrivals at every stop w/a shelter.
-Z
Z, I think your last concern
Z, I think your last concern will be assuaged by this new deal Street just brokered, in which some contractor is going to build new bus shelters on its own dime and then get to pocket the advertising revenue that comes from ads on the shelters. They are doing this in NYC, and the description I read of them in The New Yorker sounded pretty sharp.
Fare collection on Regional Rail
The form of SEPTA that I take the most often is Regional Rail. It costs $5 to buy your ticket on the train, even if the ticket office is not open at the station where you got on. This is pretty annoying and is absolutely a disincentive for me to ride the train. I hope that whatever new fare collection system is put in place allows for riders to have a card that can be filled up by the user. New York, DC, and pretty much every other transit agency in the world does this. It's pretty amazing that Philly is so far behind-- after all, we have one of the more expensive systems in the country and we absolutely don't get our money's worth.
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Yeah, the on-board surcharge
Yeah, the on-board surcharge even if the ticket office isn't open is totally unfair. I suggested the other day that they allow you to purchase a ticket online. You could pay by credit card, and you could print out a ticket. Not sure how the conductors would validate its authenticity, though.
Don't expect any changes anytime soon, though.
On a related note, I read the other day that even Altanta's woefully underfunded--and scorned--mass transit system, MARTA, is moving away from tokens to farecards soon! Pretty embarassing.
fare collection
it seems to me that the fare collection discussion is much different for Regional Rail and for Buses, Subways and Trolleys. They each have different needs and different collection methods.
Fare Collection on buses, trolleys and subways.
based on my discussions w/ SEPTA planners, SEPTA wants a new fare collection and are debating between a swip system (like New York's MetroCard) and an RFID chip system (like DC, Chicago, Boston and Atlanta). Many cities are moving towards the RFID system which is more expensive on a per-card basis but offers speed of collection benefits and some security benefits (and some security problems). RFID is costly for single-use rides. I think that Atlanta has some neat technology that places the RFID in a disposable paper receipt, but i dont know the details.
That said, this expensive is more challenging to the user and the operator and most importantly, the technology in this area is rapidly changing. I think that both VISA and MasterCard are trying to get into the RFID payment game, especially w/r/t transit fare collection. I think New York has a small RFID test program, run by VISA, on the number 6 line.
It is my understanding that SEPTA wants new fare collection but is unsure which technology to select. I suspect we are three years away from new fare collection technology on buses, trolleys and subways.
Fare Collection on Regional Rail
I think everyone agrees that it sucks to pay an surcharge on the train when there are no options at your train station. Seems like a big F-you to passengers and discourages the occasional rider.
SEPTA removed/disabled all the outdated orange ticket machines last year and i do not know what the plans to replace them. I think this should be a priority for the RR system.
Riding WMATA, thinking of SEPTA
I'm living in DC for the summer and have been taking the Metro everywhere. It is SO CLEAN. No one is ever eating while riding and the conductor even reminds you to take your newspaper with you. It really shocked me coming from the stained seats and overall grime of SEPTA. I think that is one thing SEPTA should be able to do and shouldn't cost that much.
As for farecards, I'm not sure which system would be better swipe or RFID. Since SEPTA already uses swipe cards for its weekly & monthly passes, I bet that would be easier for them to transition to. But here's the thing, would switching to RFID mean that SEPTA would have to change its fare system? In DC, each fare depends on how far you ride so there is no discount for frequent users and actually they charge you more during peak commuting hours.
There is something called a SmarTrip card, which you register under your name and if you lose it, you pay $5 and get a new card issued with however much money was left on it (you also must pay $5 initially). This is a nice service and I think worth it just so you don't have to bother with the paper farecards. Somehow I always needed 3 attempts to get thru the feeder properly. That being said, my SmarTrip card has de-magnetized twice in 2 months so it's not foolproof either. You have to be sure to keep it away from you cell phone so that doesn't happen.
So I am not sure if I would rather always pay for exactly how far I travel or be able to take as many rides as I can use in a week or month. I think it really depends on how frequent a rider you are. My guess would be that most people in Philly would end up paying more if they switched to a per ride price.
The other 2 things I would really like to see are later hours for the subway on weekends (DC goes till 3:00am) and signs in the stations that tell you when the next car is coming, rather than endlessly wondering/hoping/praying one comes soon.
fare collection technology vs fare policy
The fare collection technology (tokens, stored value cards [aka swipe cards], or RFID) is a separate issue from the fare policy. Each of these collection technologies can be made to work with a variety of fare policies.
Fare policies determine how much it costs to go a specific distance. SEPTA's bus, trolley and subway all use a flat fare system while Washington DC Metro is a zone system similar (to SEPTA's regional rail).
Another fare collection policy, which has not been mentioned in this thread is the proof-of-payment system, aka the honor system. this is used widely throughout Europe as well as on New Jersey's own River Line. It is always a tough sell to get these payment systems introduced because many people are afraid it will lead to people "stealing" or "cheating" the system.
No surcharge on Chestnut Hill East when ticket office is closed
I have been taking the R7 for decades and have never been charged a penalty when the ticket office at Mt. Airy Station is closed.
That is no longer true. I
That is no longer true. I rode the R7 last night and was charged a surcharge. It's only been implemented in the last few weeks. When was the last time you rode on the train?
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On July 10: no surcharge
On July 10: no surcharge.
Was the change in policy publicized?
On July 10: no surcharge
On July 10: no surcharge.
Was the change in policy publicized?
I'm down with the Rider's union
It's an idea long overdue.
As someone with a busy bus line on the street in front of my house, I would really, really like to see a better fleet of vehicles. It is just unbelievable how obnoxious those current extra-long buses are.
I'm not sure it should be a top priority; obviously, it doesn't make sense for SEPTA to prioritize according to my level of noise and dirt tolerance - but I'm sure that there are a lot of people who would like to see quieter and less polluting buses.
Fare-Free Transit
In Vancouver (and elsewhere), they're talking about eliminating fare collection altogether.
Sigh...
--Tim
Thanks, Tim, for interesting
Thanks, Tim, for interesting info about Vancouver.
In several European cities fare collection is basically an honor system. In Vienna, you had to buy a pass which you must produce if asked by transit police. (This rarely happened.) Failure to do so resulted in a stiff fine.
Don't count that funding just yet...
Two US Congressmen from Pennsylvania on Tuesday night inserted language into a federal transportation bill that would prohibit the use of federal funds to impose tolls on I-80 (see related story), a key part of the newly-minted transportation funding plan.
Does anyone know who these genius Congresscritters are?
-Z
I don't see how this pass the US Congress
I'm on vacation in New England this week, so just heard about this idiotic idea.
I don't see how a Democratic Congress will let this language stay in the transportation bill.
This looks like Grandstanding to me.
Rep Peterson, John E. [PA-5] I-80 Amendment
Rep. English is the other cosponsor. I would not be so sure that the proposed amendment will not be part of an approved final bill, even though both Congressmen are Republicans. I believe that ususally in this type of matter the Congress will view this as a local issue and defer to the wishes of congressmen.
H.AMDT.629 (A033)
Amends: H.R.3074
Sponsor: Rep Peterson, John E. [PA-5] (offered 7/24/2007)
AMENDMENT PURPOSE:
An amendment prohibiting the use of funds for tolling on I-80 in Pennsylvania.
STATUS:
7/24/2007 6:22pm:
Amendment (A033) offered by Mr. Peterson (PA). (consideration: CR H8359, text: CR H8359)
7/24/2007 6:23pm:
On agreeing to the Peterson (PA) amendment (A033) Agreed to by voice vote.
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TRANSPORTATION, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2008 -- (House of Representatives - July 24, 2007)
[Page: H8359]
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. PETERSON OF PENNSYLVANIA
Mr. PETERSON of Pennsylvania. Mr. Chairman, I offer an amendment.
The Acting CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will designate the amendment.
The text of the amendment is as follows:
Amendment offered by Mr. Peterson of Pennsylvania:
At the end of the bill (before the short title), insert the following:
Sec. __XX. None of the funds made available under this Act may be used to establish or collect tolls on Interstate 80 in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
The Acting CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to the order of the House of today, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Peterson) and a Member opposed each will control 5 minutes.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania.
Mr. PETERSON of Pennsylvania. I will be very brief because I believe the amendment has been agreed to.
My amendment is a simple amendment that says Federal funds cannot be used to establish or collect tolls on Interstate 80 in Pennsylvania.
Mr. OLVER. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. PETERSON of Pennsylvania. I will yield to the gentleman.
Mr. OLVER. I am happy to accept the amendment by the gentleman from Pennsylvania.
Mr. KNOLLENBERG. And likewise, I accept as well.
Mr. PETERSON of Pennsylvania. I thank the two gentlemen. We will let the process move forward.
This was offered both on behalf of Congressmen PETERSON and ENGLISH.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
The Acting CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Peterson).
The amendment was agreed to.
Democrats control the House
and it is not a local issue. It is an issue that affects the whole state.
I might turn out to be wrong, but I don't think this is going to make it in the final bill.
This Is How Things Are Snuck In
The short debate chronicled above by elp--in which the key debate was the statements of the lead Democrat of the lead Democrat John Olver (Massachusetts) and the lead Republican Joe Knollenberg (Michigan) that they agreed with the anti-tolling amendment for I-80--is a textbook example of how things are snuck through in the legislative process.
Both Olver and Knollenberg represent disproportionately rural districts, and thus would be sympathetic to the complaints of Peterson and English. I would be surprised if Olver had any idea of the significance of what he was agreeing to, and I doubt that any of the Congress members watching had any idea of what was going on.
Now that everyone is aware of the high stakes involved, I would hope that Rendell and the Democratic Congressional delegation from Pennsylvania would mobilize Olver and the rest of the Democratic Caucus against the English-Peterson amendment and for the state transportation plan providing record aid to improve Pennsylvania's mass transit, highway, and bridge systems.