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How Business is Done
Submitted by Dan U-A on Tue, 12/06/2005 - 10:08am.
Courtesy of Councilman Goode, we see the check the Chamber of Commerce was handing out. I would call it exhibit A for why we need to get money out of the political process.
Click to enlarge the check. Too often, checks like these are how business gets done, whether in Philadelphia, Harrisburg, or Washington, D.C.
Alternatively, this could be
Alternatively, this could be titled "democracy at work."
Are we being a bit myopic?
I understand the general bias on this site against tax cuts. Notwithstanding, couldn't we post all of the checks that all Councilpeople and elected officials have received and say the same thing about them? Councilman Goode has - according to Hallwatch.com - accepted money from the electricians union and an outdoor advertising company (i.e., billboards). So what?
Donations a red herring; focus on the policy
Councilman Goode,
I respect your service and intentions, but I challenge you or anyone to prove that the Chamber's donations to council members who share the GPCC's priorities are any different than any other donation to a Philadelphia - or state, or national - elected official.
More important, these donations should not distract us from the serious policy matter at hand, which I believe can be summed up as: The amount of additional sales, wage and property tax receipts generated by reducing or eliminating BPT will exceed the foregone revenues generated under the status quo. Philly businesses win, Philly workers win, Philly government wins. This is something we can all get behind.
The Chamber's trying to shut down the policy debate.
I'm for tax reform - not tax elimination.
The Chamber is stuck on tax elimination.
I'm all for a policy debate on business tax elimination.
WWGjr
what a shame
this site has so much promise, and so much energy. but its moderators are so sadly close-minded and clearly only want a community of like-minded clones of themselves instead of an open forum for discussion. guys, this site will never reach its potential or be taken seriously, because you go out of your way to chase away anyone that offers a different opinion. why be so hostile, gents?
Wowsers
Just checked this thread - didn't mean to spark such controversy. I have no idea what Ben does...didn't know he was in school; the "offensive" quote was more of a rhetorical device, not to be taken literally. Didn't mean any offense; just thought that Ben's comment about “anti-tax” advocates being “terrified” about having a debate about taxes warranted a response. I meant to make the point that, if you’ve been here and worked here for any amount of time, you’ve known people who have left the City for places that don’t have as high and burdensome a tax structure. The sobering reality of having friends and acquaintences tell you their leaving the City you adore because of something like taxes makes you reconsider your liberal orthodoxy somewhat..makes you see both sides of the issue a bit more, makes you a little more pragmatic - rather than dogmatic - about the tax issue.
don't take the cannolis
I'm not sure I can add much to the debate other than to make the following four points:
1. What the chamber did in this specific case is just plain stupid and they should have known better than to try and shore up votes the night before the session with a cool grand and a twice-baked potato.
2. I admire the councilmember(s) who said thanks but no thanks--voting eve PAC checks just don't look right, regardless of whether it would sway my vote or not. The ones that ate the steak and took the cannolis should also know better.
3. Tax fairness and tax reductions for the middle and working classes (on their homes, their businesses and their wages) is the ethical thing to do for a city who has given away the store to so many big businesses and corporations and banks and developers. Revenue shortfalls resulting in these cuts need to be made up by getting money from those entities that have gotten a good ride up till now. They include the banking industry, some developers who purchase city-owned real estate, parking lot corporations, and others. The city MUST keep its promises and protect the pensions and the wages of those who fight our crime, fight our fires, teach our children and run our city-- and getting the gravy from the turkeys that have dodged that bullet for decades is the way to go. Ultimately, I think this approach will strengthen our economy, give people a chance to save and spend, and create jobs. That's what I mean when I say I support TAX REFORM. And I only wish the Chamber and many others meant the same thing as I do when they use those words. It's not a GOP thing. It's not a DLC thing. It's not a Liberal thing. It's just what I and other Democrats (liberal and otherwise) think is smart and ethical policy.
4. Lets disagree without being disagreeable. If there's one thing we can reform WITHOUT passing legislation or being elected to office, its how we treat each other as human beings while we knock each other's political teeth out. We all know we can be better than many (but not all ) of those who currently toil in Philly politics...let us illustrate HOW we can be better on this great blog.
Well, first of all, lets take
Well, first of all, lets take the meaning of bias, from Merriam-Webster:
"a personal and often unreasoned judgment for or against one side in a dispute." I have seen plenty of reason from Ray on why he is pushing against BPT elimination.
Second, it is a little silly, considering there was a front page post about why we need public funding of elections, to imply there is any kind of "so what" attitude on the site towards money in the political system, no matter who it is from.
Third, the post has about three sentences, and says that is how business is done, whether here, in Harrisburg or DC. Are you implying that is incorrect? Or, with your "so what," that you just don't care?
Fourth, I don't think anyone, including Councilman Goode, wants to wage war on the chamber of commerce. But, to hand out 1,000 checks as you want votes? That is pretty gross.
Public funding of elections, public funding of elections, public funding of elections
IBEW is a Goode supporter
The Hallwatch information is from last term - but fair game.
I've received money from IBEW and will continue to enjoy their support.
I've received money from a billboard company and voted against Bill 629.
There's nothing wrong with full disclosure. Let's keep it going. :)
WWGjr
Donations are not a red herri
Donations are not a red herring at all. They are a clear symptom for public policy being subservient to money.
Are the chamber's donation of money, right at the time of a key vote, different than another group doing the same? Probably not. But, does that makes it OK? Just out of curiosity then, what do you think of the pay-to-play stuff focused on the Street administration? Are you cool with that, considering it is a practice that surely didn't start or end with John Street?
Big donations, whether coming from the Chamber, IBEW or the "DanUA wants a BMW-Pac," are a huge problem, and, thanks to Councilman Goode we have a visual example of them.
I suspect the anti-tax people
I suspect the anti-tax people are terrified to have that debate. They'll lose, badly.
Disagreeing and disagreeing
The idea has come up in the context of a republican-democratic debate over what this site is about, and what it is aimed for. Basically, as I have repeated ad nauseum, this is not a left-right debating society. Debate between progressives and moderates? That is a little different.
So, sure, we can disagree; that is not the problem. The problem is that when someone comes on the site and says
That is not debate; it is an attempt to marginalize Ben for being in school. So, if you are going to attack a writer from Young Philly Politics for having the audacity to be in college, you mine as well take the feelings of superiority elsewhere.
I would argue that people who
I would argue that people who believe that tax cuts are the only way to fix Philadelphia's economy are dogmatic and people like Councilman Goode are being much more pragmatic.
I prefer personal attacks and
I prefer personal attacks and rhetoric. It's easier than actually thinking and I haven't had my coffee yet.
BPT and Pay To Play are not the same
While I share your feelings that money plays too much of a role in campaigns and in day to day governance, I have divorced the issue from the actual BPT policy debate. I feel strongly that BPT has hurt Philadelphia for too long, and am more interested in effecting change than in lumping BPT with what to me is a separate and larger issue about the role of money in politics.
Not So Fast
Nice terminology, pretty loaded. Most of the "anti-tax" people are actually - despite Ray's concern that they're Grover Norquist clones - people who are concerned about Philadelphia's competitiveness as a place to live and do business. If you lived and worked here, you'd understand.
Totally
Full disclosure is excellent - I agree. I'm just making the point that there are lots of checks that get written to politicians. I don't think that a check from the Chamber to vote on an issue with benefits that flow to every single person who has a business in Philadelphia fails the smell test.
well....
actually, Daniel, I was referring to your hostility expressed above towards those supporting taxcuts. you're the moderator - is it unfair to ask you to be a little more politic towards those expressing a view contrary to your own? Ben & Ray do the same - mocking folks' support for mayor, belittling people for user names, etc. I don't understand why the most aggressive people on this site are actually the moderators. you scare people away, gentlemen. its a shame, only because it could have been different... and better....
pragmatic?
well, in texas taxes are 32% less than national averages including no taxes on business equipment, no personal income taxes, including many other tax perks.
In July 2005 alone, Ft. Worth-Arlington added 2100 jobs, Houston 1100 I believe.
Owning a business is not a privilege, it's a right. I wish Philadelphia could join the economic boom seen around the rest of the country during the 90's, and continued today--instead of just a condo boom for elites visiting the city twice a year.
When was the last year Philadelphia added jobs? Tax cuts are good, and as Democrats the goal is job creation right? J-O-B-S. With logistics today, it doesn't matter where you own a business, and the point of being is business is to make money.
So, as long as it is for a po
So, as long as it is for a policy you like, you don't care how it is accomlphished? But, if it is for a policy or person (such as Street) you don't like, it is a bad thing?
Philly Phantom, please explain
I live and work in Phlly, and I pay the BPT. Yet, I feel that the issue of who benefits and who loses from tax rollbacks is an extremely complicated one. Since I'm obviously mistaken on this issue, I would appreciate it if you would explain it to me.
By the way, wma122, I appreciate your balance on this issue, and would like to hear you say more about how you have so clearly decided on the merits of the BPT.
Joshua
Busted
You're right that I don't live or work in Philadelphia. I'm in college at a small school in Central Pennsylvania. However, I don't think your zip code gives you inherent crediblity. I know you love to evoke our age as a counter argument, but your logic is flawed.
Dan, Ray, and I are public about our identity and don't hide behind pen names or personal attacks. I’m fine with you providing anonymous counter arguments, but root them in policy.
Don’t say “Well, Ben, you don’t live here so you couldn’t possibly know what’s going on.” That’s not an intellectual argument.
oh god. Let me just say that
oh god. Let me just say that "If you lived and worked here, you'd understand." is a line of reasoning that will get your ass booted off the site.
I have lived and worked in Philadephia. I have also tried to approach the BPT debate with an open mind. So, for example, I have spoken to small business owners that I know to ask them what they think about it. Their answers have been that the BPT aint their problem, the feeling that the City does not care, with endless redtape and little help for them, is their problem.
You can debate policy on here. But, if you are going to come on a site called Young Philly Politics, and claim some BS moral superiority to Ben because he is in college, do not bother to come back.
Ouch!
Seems like Philly Phantom has caught on to the deep, dark secret of Young Philly Politics...
scrolling up
What comments, exactly, are you referring to? Did I mock someone who supports the Mayor? Unless I am missing something, the only thing I see is me asking if it is a little hypocritical to criticize the Mayor for pay to play while ignoring what the Chamber of Commerce is doing.
So, which comments of mine are you referring to?
Idiotic?
So, smart guy, here's a little quiz for you: do you happen to know what Texas' rank is for education in this country?
Illiteracy?
Poverty?
Children without health insurance?
Criminal Justice?
Eh- who needs to educate and protect our children? Those little bastards aren't worth spending any money on taxes anyway...
Only someone "educated" in Texas (or someone sitting on an oil well) could come to the conclusion that things are going well in that state. Do you really think that the only job of the state is to help private business? If it's job creation you want then I have one word for your Milton Friedman infected mind- KEYNES.
I know that you free-market fanatics have utmost faith that cutting taxes will raise revenue- unfortunately reality disagrees with you.
Draft Zinni! It's Security, Stupid!
...and Ben forgot to mention...
..that he grew up in Philadelphia and Montgomery county and comes home to Overbrook when he is on break. The fact that Ben pays as much attention as he does to Philadelphia politics and issues from afar is a testament to his devotion not a sign that he does not know what he is talking about.
And, how many times can I say that pen names are lame! Come on folks, if you don't believe in what you are saying enough to use your real name, how serious of an agent for change can you be?
so lame i'll say it twice
Philly Phantom like so many other of the Chamber cronies and clones who have posted on here in the past months particularly frustrate me becuase they ALWAYS go for the emotional jugular. (did anyone see Brett mandel's email today? total hysterics!)
I am not one to shy away from theatrics in my writing and in my talking, but i TRY to base what I say in fact and offer supporting evidence as such. While PEL and the Chamber and PhilaForward have done some studies (with the exception of their phony telephone survey) they seem not to argue for BPT elimination from a reasoned perspective so much as an emotional one: "we care about philly and if you do too you'll eliminate the BPT"
We ALL care about Philadelphia. I deeply love this city and have so far devoted my professional life to making it better. But I know that BPT elimination is not going to solve this city's problem with wages, jobs and a declining tax base.
I am willing to consider arguments that it will help ease those problems, but even if i bought into that I know that BPT alone is not the city's savior.
and I don't want to mix apples and oranges but some ethics reformers argue from the same place of emotion without bothering to back things up in fact (like the fact that while there are some instances of corruption, that the city does manage to get the majority of its business done legitimately).
as many of the same players involved in ethics reform (the Chamber, PhilaForward, etc) are also heavily immersed in this BPT debate, one does wonder, is thre a bigger agenda here?
sorry wma122
I meant to say demerits.
Not the way I look at it
Reducing or eliminating BPT will make businesses (read: Jobs) more likely to set up shop or stay in Philly. We have to compete against our own suburbs and other cities - and Philly's tax burden is far higher than what it takes to compete. BPT is not the only reason we have lost hundreds of thousands of jobs and residents, but it is one of them. And it is a roadblock to attracting new jobs.
The BPT brings in such a small percentage of the city government's overall revenue, but its existence and reputation have caused great damage. What we lose in BPT revenue we will more than make up in new jobs, wage tax, sales tax, increased commercial real estate occupancy rates, property values, and tax. There is a huge ripple effect I believe to be possible here. And - if you're still not convinced - the latest legislation has built in checks and safeguards to ensure BPT elimination does have its intended effect and that change is phased in to eliminate any funding shortfalls for vital government services. What do we have to lose?
It's for these reasons that change is needed. It doesn't matter to me whether the Chamber sits on the sidelines or buys new Porsches for each council member - that's an entirely separate issue. The change of a harmful policy and creation of new jobs are their own merit.
I wondered how long it would
I wondered how long it would take you to post something snarky. :-)
Creating a Jewel of City
Alex,
I don't really see that increasing or decreasing revenue is the issue. There is a very legitimate debate about the quality of the services the city is capable of providing. Taxing more and raising more revenue would not solve many of city's problems which are intrisic to the way our society deals with race and parcels out capital.
Now, sure this isn't a pretty understanding of where Philadelphia is but do I want political leaders who make unrealistic promises of what's achievable in the short term or do I want to take the risk that changing the city's competitive dynamic might improve life for many Philadelphians. I would argue that many people who are for cutting taxes--and I'm quite open to exactly what changes might be made and what quid pro quo would be made in exange--share this view.
I believe that Philadelphia is such a great place to live despite all the crime, crummy schools and social conflicts that if we altered the competitive dynamic, over the next five to ten years we'd be capable of blowing many of our regional competitors right out of the water and providing a jewel of city where more Philadelphians get the quality of life they deserve.
Nutter
They want a certian Councilman from East Falls to get elected Mayor.
AMEN
I couldn't have said it better ... AMEN.
WWGjr
the issue
Mike- I agree with some of what you're saying. I'm not sure what it had to do with my previous comment though.
While taxing and spending will not by default garuntee success in education, poverty reduction, health care access, etc, not taxing and spending will garuntee that these problems get worse or at least stay as bad as they are. No taxes=no money for schools, but higher taxes do not necissarily equal better schools. HOWEVER- I'm pretty sure that there is a direct correlation between per-pupil spending on education and performance. That could be because kids who get more money spent on them come from wealthier areas, but it could also be because kids from poorer areas get screwed out of a decent education. So maybe there is a direct correlation between spending per-pupil and quality of education after all.
I know you went to Central, and that's a fine school, but have you ever visited the "neighborhood" schools? Hell- I went to E&S for 2 years, and that was supposed to be the 2nd best school in the city. It felt more like junior prison, and was a pretty horrible experience for me. Then I went to Parkway, and even though they didn't have up-to-date texts, or any working computers, at least they let us go to the Gallery for lunch (at E&S our "lunch-room" consisted of about 3 vending machines). Were these schools bad because of a lack of funding? YES, YES, YES!!! (not that there weren't other problems, but the problems in this case come primarily from the lack of funding and the horrid state of the school facilities and materials)
But of course you are correct that this is a broader problem. However, starving the little beast that is Philly gov't is not, no way in hell, going to fix it. It is a recipe for making things worse, not better, sicne the distribution of resources is at the heart of many of these problems.
"I want to take the risk that changing the city's competitive dynamic might improve life for many Philadelphians."
Fine. But assuming that tax breaks for businesses will change this dynamic is simplistic and I would say FLAT OUT WRONG. I don't think that you ever adequately addressed the comment in the other thread about the lack of correlation between local taxes and business, and that's something you need to explain if your argument is going to make any sense.
I would argue that many people who are for cutting taxes share this view
I would argue that their primary motivation is much simpler then that- it's the fuel that makes American Capitalism go (and that is leaving behind the majority of Americans) GREED.
I believe that Philadelphia is such a great place to live despite all the crime, crummy schools and social conflicts that if we altered the competitive dynamic, over the next five to ten years we'd be capable of blowing many of our regional competitors right out of the water and providing a jewel of city where more Philadelphians get the quality of life they deserve.
I'm with you there, but the competition is not for lower taxes- it's for higher standards of living. If we can attract bright, young, and educated people to the city, then we can reach that goal. But we cannot reach it with a bankrupt or crippled city government.
Junk bond status here we come!!!
Draft Zinni! It's Security, Stupid!