What else is there to talk about today except this:
Come to Philly for Change tonight, and celebrate! Details and RSVP here.
Bookmark/Search this post with:
Wow.
Submitted by Ray Murphy on Wed, 06/04/2008 - 10:26am.
Young Philly Politics
Progressive, Young, Philadelphia Politics, from Small to Big.
Shot across the bow...
I have to say that it is pretty damn awesome that he chose to hold his victory announcement in the same venue where the Republicans will hold their convention. Does anyone here think that the convention will seem half as electric as that building does when John McCain stand before his fellow (mostly strait rich white male) Republicans later this summer?
That was some damn good PR. I don't care what anyone says, John McCain is toast.
god I hope you are right Alex
and I also wish Obama would stop talking to dumb AIPAC and saying things that make my head hurt. Though lord knows I guess it's necessary to counteract all the messed up Jewish racism that is bubbling up everywhere.
Can Someone Say Messed Up Jewish Racism in German?
Oh, an anti-Semite, we have...look at what just walked into the rat-trap...SNAP!!
Jennifer, yes, Jewish racism is very well-known...that is why Jews contribute in record numbers to the NAACP and United Negro College Fund and are more liberal for their own good...that is why Jews vote in record numbers for liberal Democrats...Jews are one of the most liberal voting blocks in the country...give me a break...
I hope the group here condemn the previous post from the young lady...it would interesting...to see...
Jennifer are you from South Philadelphia?
Oy
I am talking about my entire extended (um, Jewish) family who has been talking nonstop for the past couple months every single time I see them about how Obama hates the Jews. And saying things (and sending email forwards) that betray their apparent underlying total discomfort with a Black Democratic presidential candidate that I am not gonna repeat here.
But yes, I live in South Philly now, how did you ever know?
There are anti-Semites in
There are anti-Semites in South Philadelhia...not all...but some...
In World War II/1930's...Black shirted sympathizers with Mussolini were common in South Philadelphia...ask anyone from that era...
Sorry, but Obama may not hate Jews but he is close buddies with people who do...
Have you been out of the country? Did you not see Rev. Wright call Israel a terrorist state? Oh that isn't Jewish? OK...did you not see Rev. Wright praise Farrakhan and Obama's priest praise Farrakhan, Rev. Phleger?
Where have you been?
I know...I have a friend who lives in the Northeast and many older Jews are discomfitted with Obama's association with anti-Semitic people...so put that in your pipe and smoke it...
Ugh
Can take issue with some counter factual stuff here. First Pfleger is not "Obama's priest" Pfleger as all the world now knows is white and Catholic. Obama until recently belonged to Trinty United which is Protestant congregation. Pfleger is an outspoken activist around Chicago, railing against the Illinois State Legisture for not passing tougher gun laws, urging the city of Chicago to confront urban violence, failing schools, foreclosures. Hey some of those issues sound familiar to us Philadelphians.
Anyhoo, Pfleger is known as a bit of firebrand but also a social activist that any community activist or urban politician of note from the South side of Chicago would know and have worked along side on an issue or two. Obama is no exception. Likewise Pfleger knows Farakahn as a local figure in Chicago. Pfleger may take issue with portrayals ofFarakahn as Satan incarnate but its a stretch to say that Pheger is therefore an anti-Semite and its a ridiculous case of 7 degrees of seperation to connect Obama (who is not Catholic) to Farakahn vis Pfleger.
RE Wright and Farakahn: Wright has said many things I disagree with but its also a stretch to call him an antiSemite, much less Obama one by association. Wright is critic of Israeli-Palestinian relations but honestly from what he said at the National Press Club his position can best be summed as "Its a situation best settled by both the Israeli and Palestinians. About Farakahn Wright said - again quoting the National Press Club or as best as I can recall from the youtube video - "African Americans listen when Farakahn talks, they may not agree, but they listen". In short to say "some of Obama's buddies hate Jews" is a broad distortion of the vastly more nuanced truth of the situation. And basically a distortion that was devised by Republicans of the sort who tend to say things along the lines of Ann Coulter - they "support Israel" and like Jews fine, but would like them even more once they are "perfected".
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Father Coughlin was a
Father Coughlin was a firebrand, too...what are ou trying to say? Do you know who Father Coughlin is? When Coughlin spoke in cities in Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia, in certain sections, he was so popular that you could hear his whole show as you walked the streets in South Boston, for instance...popularity is no measure of correctness or goodness...Hitler was wildly popular...
Father Phleger is a friend and advisor to Obama...Catholic or not...
Also, I get nervous when Catholic priests get involved in politics...I think of Msgr. Josef Tiso and all the other Eastern European clerico-Fascists...in Croatia and Slovakia...
Luigi, sorry, but your comments did not convince me...Rev. Wright was not only quoted but you can see him rant and rave on YouTube all you want...
- Down in the Basement
Wright and Pfleger's views are out there, but youre still wrong
Your claims about what Wright says about Israel and "hating the Jews" are pretty plainly counterfactual. I'm pretty unhappy with some of Wright's spotlight chasing but he was asked point blank about many of the things you claim here at the National Press Club and clearly his answers were not the ones you are posting on this blog.
Since I collected the video of Wright at his most deliberate grandstanding from the National Press Club in a thread I actually started complaining about his comments I suggest you peruse that thread. He plainly answeres about his opinions on Farakahn, on Israel-Palestinian relations and the answers he plainly gives are not the ones you are alleging in this thread. They are the opinions I synopsized earlier.
As you say "its on YouYube" and in this instance I have actually collected them for you in a handy digestible form.
I'm not happy with his tone and his timing and I discuss some of my own objections to his comments in the thread but clearly they are not what you claim them to be. Please, I invite you digest them for yourself.
http://youngphillypolitics.com/thougts_latest_obama_wright_comments
RE: Pfleger
Again you are going after stuff that isn't there, IMO. I think you are being manipulated. Pfleger does have controversies of his own. His recent comments about Hillary were plainly rude and disrepectful of her personally. I personally don't think they were "racist" - unless you suggest that even evoking the concept of "white priveledge" at all as "racist". Again as you say "its all on youtube" - well look for yourself - not for a 30 sec clip but a 5 minute one and the guy is pretty clear on his where he actually stands. The best clip of Pfleger IMO is the one below. A local Fox reporter really goes after him, trying to really back the guy into the corner, but he also speaks about Farakahn. Watch it. It is what it is. If I were running for president I sure wouldn't want him considered a "spokesperson" but I am quite confident anyone who watches thiswould think you are clearly misstating Father Pfleger's positions.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
I have to say
Thanks for posting that Sean. I thought that interview was great. And his comments about Hillary at Wright's church were generally right, although the irony of a Catholic priest complaining about anyone else benefiting from the privilege of a racist, classist, and incredibly sexist and homophobic institution was not lost on me. Lay down with dogs...
That said, you are all debbie downers. Obama. Nominee. A time for celebration, not troll-baiting.
Well
I'm probably a tad over-rehearsed to respond from threads like this.
Also I personally have been mocked too many thousands of times as "buying into empty rhetoric of hope", etc., to be able to talk about what a historic, inspirational moment this is (though I firmly believe it is). I have a hard time typing that without expecting someone to kick me in the groin in about 30 seconds.
I agree that Pfleger rather effectively talks down the Fox reporter trying to insert words into his mouth repeatedly in that clip.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
hope! hope! hope!
eh, don't worry about it. we have banned all the republicans here.
anyway, how can you not love this moment inside the big one:
Sorry
But some of the worst stuff I have come across - active support for the Stone "whitey" BS story, racist tirades insulting a former editor of the Harvard Law Review as genetically inferior in intelligence, "ODUMBO", folks like Mr. Basement here - have come from people who called themselves Clinton supporters. I think some Clinton supporters need to step up a little and say "hate and deliberate misinformation and racial slander is not why we supported our candidate - its not our vision of Democracy - it's not what we stand for". I get the resentment that there have been overt cases of sexism against Clinton as a candidate. I get hard feelings about coming so close and coming up just short. I don't get the assent of silence for ridiculous racism and the endless "guilt by association" tirades.
Seriously, the Republicans just call us all "socialists" - its a small select set of the "America isn't ready" self-described Clinton supporters that are among the worst. I know lots a great people that passionately supported Hillary for terrific reasons. She's a terrific candidate. There are however a very few that passionately cling to distorted "Obama is racist against whites, Jews, etc." conspiracies to externalize their mixed feelings about their internal prejudices. Or at least thats my venture into the pop psychology of why I've seen self-described "Clinton supporters" who want her to run as a 3rd Party candidate to stop (and I've seen this in type) "North Philly trash" from "taking over".
Its what I was talking about here. I don't ask Clinton supporters to wave the flag for Obama, I do ask them to take a lead role in calling out some of those who supported her for reasons they know don't represent the best of America and the best of what Hillary Clinton brought to the table.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
give it a rest sean
hope! hope! hope!
Sometimes I wonder
... what might have been if Hillary Clinton had given a speech about race, gender, violence, etc. following her RFK moment like Obama gave here in Philadelphia following the first blow-up over Jeremiah Wright. I don't know if it would have been too little, too late, but if she had leaned into it, and tried to claim the mantle of RFK for progressivism and a certain kind of Democratic coalition. It would have been the last great visionary gasp of baby-boomer liberalism. And in an election where only a God could save her, it may have been her only hope.
It's astonishing that the Clinton campaign didn't even seem to LOOK for that kind of transformative moment, let alone take advantage of it. I believe they thought that when they started winning big states, the momentum would change. Obama, on the other hand, was frequently able to change the momentum (or add to it) AND win big states and blocks of states.
Yes
why can't there be TWO high roads? Or like, which can't the high road be wide enough for two. Or whatever. :(
i totally agree
and i think Jennifer and I both posted that at the time. or we gchatted about it. one or the other.
Hillary fucked up that moment for sure. I also don't have time/energy to go into it more, but she has also played a very traditional powerful woman role. i would go out a bit on a limb and say that one thing Obama has had going for him in the face of extreme racism is some sense of solidarity from his African-American community and I'd say Clinton had much less of that from women on the whole. (maybe for good reason, but still). and that despite Emily's List and NOW, I have a sense that many powerful women have felt isolated from other powerful women and gone it on their own. so it was not perhaps as easy for hillary to have taken that high road as it may appear.
[this is especially important to remember in light of the fact that there is almost no policy difference between the two at all].
Teasing
Besides unimportant stuff like health care and Iran.
jesus
cut me a break.
Where's Gaetano when you need him?
What's with the relentless South Philly bashing? People in South Philly don't read, hate Jews, love Mussolini, goosestep with Catholic fascists? (or "not all... but some...") Not cool. Not cool at all.
Of course its not cool
But I do have a question intended to lighten things up a little. Or at least I hope its taken that way.
What was up with all the Berlusconi posters back during the primary? I mean I realize a small number of folks maintain citizenship and can vote but seriously there were as many of those as posters for Philly candidates in some parts of South Philly back in April. Was that just one rabid Berlusconi fan on a staple gun rampage or what?
Since facial expressions don't come off here, I'm intending this as joke but its a half-serious question.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
I'm trying to ignore the
I'm trying to ignore the post, actually.
During WWII, the vast majority Italian Americans were 100% loyal to the United States and were just as committed to freeing the world from tyranny and oppression. This loyalty was maintained despite a half a century of mistreatment, fear and prejudice.
For that loyalty, many were interned. 600,000 were issued governmental identification cards labeling them as "resident aliens." Thousands were part of a forced move away from coastal areas. This excludes those who were randomly arrested and the subject of curfews, searches of personal property and property seizures.
All the while, over 500,000 Italian American men (and women) served in World War II, including my great uncles (Dominic and Joe) who served in the Pacific theater.
There are 15.6 Million Italian Americans in the United States. There are thousands of Italian Americans who live, work and contribute to making South Philadelphia a great place to live. Each of those have their own opinions and perspectives, but certainly we cannot label and entire ethnic group based upon a few bad apples. I would not blame Down in the Basement's ethnic group for his insulting my community. That makes me a rational individual.
Did I say anything about anyone?
I am sorry but there is a disconnect here...did I say something or anything about any group?
I don't think so. Gaetano what ethnic group am I? You seem to be sure...
Wow, you must have a big family/they all represent Jews...
Jennifer:
You must have a big family because apparantly they all represent Jews...
You are aware that many of Obama's most vocal supporters are Jews...his chief of staff is Jewish...David Axelrod, I think...
Oy, again
There are Jews (say, me) who support Obama. Lots of them. And there are Jews who don't, at least right now, due to some combination of semi-legitimate anger at Wright's association with Farrakhan and, well, racism.
Oh but no Jews are racist and there is absolutely no history of Jewish racism towards Black people because many Jews are very liberal and give to the United Negro College Fund? (And then if I say there are racist Jews I am effectively called a Nazi?)
I should not argue with a crazy person, but the main point was this:
1. The fact that a number of Jews who are hardcore Democrats actually have spoken with open interest about McCain's candidacy worries and freaks me out.
2. It's all so damn stupid. What American presidential candidate is even marginally critical of Israel? It drives me crazy to hear Obama reduced to pandering to AIPAC because racist older Jewish people believe Internet rumors that he is Muslim or endorsed by Hamas or a whole bunch of other nonsense.
Jewish LIberalsism and Racism
One indication of the continuing Jewish committment to liberalism is that there are Jews who point out that other Jews are racist and have one-sided views of the Middle East.
And they do this even though Jews are probably less racist, more likely to criticize their "home country" and will give a higher percentage of their votes to Barack than any other mostly white group.
That kind of self-criticism is a really good thing. And I'm glad to see Jennifer making it here.
But I'm not really worried about the Jewish vote or about Barack's genuflecting (if that's the word) towards AIPAC. Worrying about whether Jews will follow the neo-conservatives into the Republican party is a quadrennial news story, an old chestnut that reporters pull out whenever in Miami or Forest Hills. And so is the obligatory AIPAC speech.
Already Jewish Democratic activists are gearing up to bring their lantzmen home for Barack.
I'm glad you point out the chestnut thing
It's true, that Florida story is obviously a stock-type piece.
I've been asking a lot of friends who are politically active Jews about this, and they mostly share your calmness: the people I'm talking about are Democrats, and they will vote for the Democratic nominee.
That's probably true and I certainly hope it is. Just what I am hearing is so regressive and so racist, and it's from people who I have always known as adament liberals (in the good, not the currently academically-untrendy, sense).
PS genuflecting is one way to put it. But there have been some great truth-to-power moments from Obama in this primary (the indignancy over the flag pin and Bill Ayers nonsense, to start). And every time he makes an AIPAC speech or uses a throw-away militantly pro-Israel line (as in the Constitution Center speech), it just saddens me that he is not free to assume a real position of leadership on American Israel policy, is not free take a reasonably balanced and sometimes critical approach to Israel. Because that is sorely desperately needed and we aren't getting it from almost any other mainstream politician.
Though, stock or not,
I spent Memorial Day weekend in Boynton Beach and it was not unlike living in that article.
Generational Aspect to Jews and Obama
In regards to the NYT article and the distrust of some Jews towards Obama, I believe that it is largely a generational issue; in that a cohort of Jews that were born in the era of the Great Depression (and before) and who were largely first generation Americans have a quiet type of racial distrust that will cause them not to vote for Obama.
Boynton Beach...I feel your pain
I spent a month in Boynton Beach one week a few years ago. (I used to know this expression in yiddish but can't remember it now.)
I would not take what comes out of the mouths of people for whom kvetching is a spectator sport as their final word on the election. They will complain and worry and complain some more. And then a lot of them are going to vote for Barack.
I once heard a funny story about someone's Bubbe and Zaida during the Rizzo-Goode primary. The Zaida kept saying awfully nasty things about Wilson Goode. And the Bubbe kept saying yes, yes. But on Election Day the Bubbe took her grandaughter with her to the polling place, picked her up to the voting machine, and had her pull the lever next to Goode's name. "Don't tell your Zaida" she said while she left the polling place laughing.
If you don't vote for Obama, you are a racist...?
So if you don't vote for Obama...than you are a racist?
Farrakhan if he could...and had enough of his Saudi masters money to do it...would physically and economically harm Jews in the United States.
Of course, no Black people are ever anti-Jewish and if they are anti-Jewish they have a legitimate reason, as oppressed people, to be anti-Jewish...I see...well, I guess that explains things that have happened in my life...I see...
Have you been around for a few decades? Do you listen to Black radio? Have you heard the vituperative anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic rhetoric?
American Jews and American non-Jews have a legitimate reason to wonder about Obama's connection with Farrakhan, Bill Ayers, Father Phleger, and Rev. White.
I recently was at a Ralph Nader event and Nader was quite candid in saying that Obama, before he was running for president, had very open views towards the Palestinians and critical of Israel.
So that is the way I see it...if you disagree...that is cool...
How about this
If you assert overly broad generalizations about how "black people" feel about Jews or you attempt to undermine a political candidate's explicitly stated views on Israel through "guilt by association" for people's whose names you can't even spell correctly, then you possibly are venturing into dangerous territory vis-a-vis "racism".
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
PS is the New York Times also from South Philadelphia?
As Obama Heads to Florida, Many of Its Jews Have Doubts .
Jenn, I don't think the People in South Philadelphia Read...
Jennifer, I don't think people in South Philadelphia read...
The New York Times...
Yo Doofus
Take a few deep breaths, and relax. This is a community you are wading into (anonymously) like a bull in a china shop. Certain people here- like Jennifer- have lots and lots of credibility in that community.
The way you are starting off is not exactly going to endear you to people here, and to the blog dictators who run this place (like, for example, me). So, take a few deep breaths, and read for a while, and try and get a little better sense of how things flow.
Dan U: I care? Should I
Dan U:
I care?
Should I polish your apple so I can stay?
I go to live forms to express my views...in public...so this is like an after-taste...
I have not said anything that is false nor unkind...
Are you reading Jennifer's posts?
Also, a blog that is incestuous where everyone agrees with each other and pats each other on the back is kind of boring...don't you think?
If you want me to leave...I will...I don't need to be insulted...just tell me not to come back...and I will comply...
Typo: Live Forums
So the typo police don't get me...I meant "Live Forums"
hahaha...
Oh and PS
I think you are maybe mixing your maus metaphors?
There were three speeches Tuesday night
Obama gave an historic one, claiming the nomination in Minnesota (a little long on the boilerplate issues stuff before the visionary rhetoric that's his forte...Axelrod should stop trying to make him sound like a normal Democrat).
Hillary gave a frustrating one down in the basement (literally...she didn't want anyone accessing internet) of Baruch College in NY. She'll make things better this weekend, hopefully.
But the best one was given by the Republican party's own Poopdeck Pappy, John McCain. The best, that is, if you're rooting for Obama.
McCain's speech was so bereft of anything--a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g--resembling a winning or even interesting campaign line or strategy that the soundbite was the candidate repeating his own opponent's most damning lines re: Bush/McCain, Bush's third term, only to deny them after a way too long pause (get this man a better tele-prompter or a B-12 shot or something!). The pause was so long that most media cut the bite off after he said ("Barack Obama's going to tell you) I'm running for George Bush's third term." Axelrod couldn't have scripted it better.
The last major party presidential campaign that evaporated without a trace was Bob Dole's.
Dole's people never came up with anything interesting for their candidate to say, no line, no program, no allegation against his opponent that broke the plane of expectations. He just said the things everyone knew a Republican would say, so that only the people who always vote Republican voted for him, along with all the people who always hated Bill Clinton.
That's exactly the impression that McCain's speech gave. He has absolutely nothing interesting to say. In fact, that's kind of how he got his by-default party nomination. The other Republicans all proved too insane (Rudy) or weird (Romney, the Glowing Eyes of Mike Huckabee), so the GOP kind of had to break the In-Case-of-Emergency glass and settle on Poopdeck because he wasn't as obviously scary or repugnant or unelectable. But the reason he wasn't scaring or repulsing anyone was because he wasn't saying anything that anyone remembered. Even the one strategy that the Republicans were sure they were going to use this election season--exploiting fear and hatred over immigration policy--is not in McCain's arsenal (and thank goodness for that).
A Republican with nothing compelling or memorable to say is a really, really good thing for the Democrats.
If Tuesday night is a preview of McCain 08, we probably can stop worrying about Obama's running mate.
Disturbing
Not sure how anyone with common sense or any grasp of reality could say that a college education is a "birthright."
You thought you knew. Now you do.
Tip of the Spear
The Promised Land
Wow. This is pretty crazy amazing.
Everybody should go and celebrate! (i can't, out of town). This should be the most joyful campaign of all time.
Obama's record on Isreal is strong
So strong that during the Pennsylvania primary campaign during Passover,a group of jews from Chicago came to Philadelphia to campaign for him. The group of over 100 had a cedar in center city.
Aw
I like seders but I might even like cedar better.
Barack Obama's Next Secretary of State? Zbigniew Breszinski?
Keith:
That was before the media stopped covering for Obama and started to report his connections with Rev. Wright - as in, "God Damn, America, and Israel is a terrorist state." If Pennsylvania's Jews knew about Obama last April as they know now, Obama would have received very few Jewish votes.
I am very concerned about Obama's connections with Wright and Farrakhan.
I'm excited today
I am so excited that Obama is the nominee. In the slightly shameless self-promotion department, I really liked today's MoveOn email:
.
Exactly.
Dude, Mr Basement
Apparently your subterranian location limits your access to credible information but unfortunately it does not limit your ability to parrot arch-conservative talk-radio smear points.
If you read this forum at all you would have known there was a lengthy discussion of the "chickens come home to roost" Wright (not White) speech you are incorrectly paraphrasing (and then putting into quotations) about a month ago. Please stop with right-wing smear campaign stuff or at least actually read (or watch) the actual words you claim disturb you so much before you spout off on them.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Obama Suspicion
Mr. Basement, I enjoy dissent and share your view that too much harmony in discussion is boring. But your dissent with Obama which is based, in part, on your "concern[] about Obama's connections with Wright" is, at best, unconvincing. I most concur with Mr. Luigi that your construction of Wright's comments needs to be re-considered, for it omits germane, case determining facts. Nonetheless, keep the dissent coming.
Koba
So in a less argumentative mode
Mr. Down in the Basement is a reminder that a lot of blatant misrepresentations of subjects that admittedly are a tad touchy have been circulating often originating from Republican circles and then picked up by a a small minority of Clinton supporters in this election cycle. We have a little bit of work ahead of us in terms of getting more accurate presentations of the facts to folks out there.
Mr. Basement has offered here a lesser example of some stuff I've seen passing around more viciously in other forums. How does the tactic of spread misinformation to divide and conquer work? Well a recent example was Republican "strategist" Roger Stone alleging in the vaguest of terms of some terribly derisive tape of Michelle Obama talking about "whitey" was about to surface. It was alleged on the eve of Puerto Rico and it was a last ditch attempt to set off a feud. No claim to have seen or heard tape, just a claim that Hillary Clinton's folks had it (plausible deniablity) and that was "why Clinton was staying in the race". The point was to breed a breakdown of communication between supporters of the two Dems, encourage a convention fight and possibly pick off some lasting votes for McCain. It fizzled but the way the Republicans approached the tactic is interesting and educational for Nov. Say Hillary has the proof (so they aren't beholden to produce it themselves), feed paranoia and racial prejudice, suggest that a logical result of this unprovable assertion is what they really want - white Clinton supporters to come over to McCain.
Normally I would smack myself for even thinking of reposting trash like this but here's Gerald Rivera (eek!) questioning Stone about his allegtions/disinformation campaign. Again my point is though this campaign basically failed (though I have seen a few Hillary supporters refer to it as if it were unquestioned truth in um more rough and tumble forums) I think this failed attempt illuminates a parallel more successful campaign aimed at Jewish Dems that our good friend "Down in the Basement" has apparently fallen victim to.
As a postscript - the tape never of course surfaced and while Clinton may still be strategically negotiating for a Veep spot, clearly the Clinton camp would have unveiled their "bomb" to stem the tide of superdelegates if they had it. Oh and Geraldo got to keep his $100.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Luigi, How About Less Ad Hominems...And More Substantive...
Luigi:
How about less of the ad hominems and more substantive criticism...?
What have I said that you specifically disagree with?
Do you want an Obama coronation?
I believe he will be a disaster for this country...
Why are you orgasmic when you see him?
Give me 10 reasons to vote for Obama?
- Down in the Basement
I've backed up every comment with concrete examples
You've stated flatly some of Obama's "buddies" "hate Jews". I've challenged you to back that up with concrete examples and you haven't been able to. Who is really doing an "ad hominem" attack here?
You don't have to support Barack Obama for President, but you can't propogate lies and exagerations like that and not expect to be challenged. Obama's views on Israel and race realtions in this country are a matter of public record in a degree of detail that has never been required of any previous candidate in American history. Instead of quoting the man himself you are following a fairly tenuous chain of "guilt by association" and then you are completely mischaracterizing the people you are unfairly equating Obama with. I just posted two links upthread several very detailed video clips that deal directly with the issues you claim to be trying to raise.
Both Pfleger and Wright are quite explicit in their answers to direct questions in them, going into painstaking detail. I personally have some issues and some disagreements with both men but anybody would quite clearly see that you are factually misstating both men's views. Go back and watch. You may still feel some unease about both men, to be frank they are both men I would hold at arms length as much in how they put their message across as their actual message, but I feel 100% confident that you will agree that claiming they simply "hate Jews" is wild, wild overstatement.
If you want to go into more details about what I personally think is wrong (and to a lesser extent what's right) about Wright's answers to the National Press Club, I will gladly discuss them in detail with you provided you ground your comments in the words the man actually spoke. I politley suggest out of maturity that you discuss them in that other thread, since that was the aim of that thread.
One other minor point of correction. Earlier in the thread you said something about Farrakhan and "his Saudi master's" which is plainly ignorant about both militant wahhabist Islam and NOI, both of whom I assume you strongly disagree with. I certainly have a long list of beefs with both. That said they are not really related and it shows a strong degree of ignorance to suggest they are alligned. NOI is a race based religion, its adherence to actual conventional Islam is questionable at best, at least to many fundementalist Muslims who refer to it derisively as "Farrakahnism". Here's a link to a fairly fundementalist Sunni Islamic website that shows what they actually think of the Nation of Islam. NOI has some rather insanely racist teachings about the mad scientist Yakub creating "the white race" that have no basis in actual Islam and if you ever actually pick up NOI materials they are about as likely to quote the King James Bible as they are the actual Qu'ran. I hope I am perfectly clear that I am not a fan - by any means - of the Nation of Islam. I personally lump them in the same boat as the white supremicist Christian Identity movement - a pseudo-religion based on racial antagonism as much as theology. I repeat I am not a fan. That said, they are not actually aligned with, nor are likely ever to be aligned with any "Saudi masters" anytime soon.
To even suggest it shows a pretty startling level of ignorance about "real" Islam in all of its various forms, fundamentalist and otherwise.
I should also think it should also be clear that I am far less likely to give NOI a pass than perhaps some members of the African American community who work with them in coalition groups do. I do think NOI are themselves "haters". That said, as pointed out earlier, while I might take issue with some things Wright, for example, has said - clearly Rev. Wright is not even the same lake, much less the same boat as NOI and its simply unfair to lump them together.
Alright that was way more of a detour than I intended into the arcane world of black seperatist theology but it should be clear that while NOI is rightly described as that, this lady pretty much explains why the term would never apply to Trinity United.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Luigi, You Are Like A Puppy Chasing Its Tail...
Luigi:
You are the proverbial puppy chasing its tail...you first condemn what I said...then state specifically where I could be right...are you sure you don't agree with me but just want to be a contrarian?
- Down in the Basement
Noone's reading comprehension is that bad
Please stop.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
An apology
For "feeding the troll" but I do think it is important for progressives to be well armed with the truth, even if it is awkward at times, because Republican operatives are going to do everything possible to lead people like poor Mr. "Down in the Basement" astray with lies and distortions. I just want folks to feel like they they don't have to skim over anything when confronting folks like him regurgitating obvious half-digested untruths.
I've seen enough of the garbage rolled out so far that I believe its going to get uglier before it gets better sadly and Mr. Basement here is the tip of a very, very large iceberg, unfortunately.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Rude, line 1
I'm glad this blog thread is petering out, whooo.
But - why the hell would anyone say that no one reads the NYT in South Philadelphia? unless the view of all those Italian-Americans down there is of lazy semi-employed 'wife-beater' clad, chianti stained racist losers - grrrrrr.
I would normally work myself in a lather over this - but there's too much 'horizontal hostility' going on here - when we should be celebrating and gearing up to kick McCain's ass back to Arizona.
See everyone on the campaign trail - for the DEMOCRAT!!!
I was thinking the same
I was thinking the same thing, actually.
It is time for Democrats to come together and work to elect Democrats, period.
This was an amazing primary where, for the first time ever, a woman and black man had realistic shots to become President. I'm proud to be a Democrat and would have been proud to have my ticket headed by either Clinton or Obama.
Only one person could have won, however. The same holds true for November. It is either going be a Democrat or Republican.
It is time to work very hard to keep Pennsylvania blue.
Gaetano
Shanks
I do remember that Shanks had a picture of Mussolini on the wall. I told Shank that if he put that up in a working class neighborhood in Italy they would probably burn his restaurant down. I also told him that Mussolini was responsible for killing American GIs. I stopped going there until the picture finally came down
Who are the Shanks?
I reread my post...what I said is true...I happen to know this as a fact...that in South Philadelphia...some citizens...some...not all...but some...wore black-shirts...and were vocally supportive of Mussolini...I pointed out no specific group...
Who are the Shanks???
Luigi, Why the Ad Hominems? Tell Me Where I Am Wrong...
Luigi:
Why the ad hominems? Tell me where I am wrong...
Oh good lord
Please stop. This thread is painfully self-explanatory to any sane person. You made counterfactual statements about various individuals as "hating Jews", I responded politely and in way more detail than you deserved with detailed examples and lengthy video interviews with those two people plainly showing you to be wrong.
If you have a point that you can make without baseless inuendo please make it. Otherwise I can also assume that your role here is one of targeted misinformation in the service of hate and racial division.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Sean: Are you the resident
Sean:
Are you the resident expert on Jewish affairs? It appears that way.
You are aware that in the United States of America we have a first amendment right to free speech...
The only person here who is posting ad hominems is yourself...
Did I say anyone hates Jews?
Rev. Wright has said God damn, America,,,and America has infected people with AIDS...Farrakhan is more specific...he has said Jewish doctors infect people with AIDS...
Don't try to defend these clowns...they are BAD...BAAAADDD...did you hear me?
Tell me what else I have stated that you disagree with...
I enjoy seeing your posts...
- Down in the Basement
Final response to you
Yes you did. In fact these were your specific words quoted verbatim.
But wait there's more . . .
I would agree with you on Farrakhan, as I laid in painful detail but your refusal to draw line between Farakhan and Wright despite very specific evidence plainly laid out to you shows me that you are a racist of the worst sort who will ignore facts placed plainly to parrot and echo deliberate untruths as part of an intentional chorus of hate.
Put plainly I am beginning to suspect that you are a "BAAAAAADDD" person with some serious mental health issues to boot - certainly more of a bigot that Rev. Wright from the evidence in this thread. I find your comments here deliberately offensive and likely intended as part of a calculated disinformation campaign.
You can't be serious. I'm done. And yes I realize people across Philly are saying "Thank god" right now. Again I apologize for "feeding the troll". I'm stopping now - for good.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
Wow...Sean...what charm
Wow...Sean...what charm school did you graduate from?
Should I be put in an oven for expressing my views?
Look who is making ad hominems here...certainly not me...
I am a bad person with mental problems, you say? Should I be gassed?
I think you need to watch your mouth. Also, please check the Constitution...we are still a nation of laws...and we still have freedom of speech...I have said nothing that is false or untrue...
It appears that you defend bad people like Rev. Wright...you don't think he is against Jews?
If anyone here has shown hate, just look at your posts.
You are persona non grata...did you graduate any higher school of learning? Did you graduate?
- Down in the Basement
Sean Has a Napolean Complex.
Sean has a Napolean complex...he says that people are saying "Thank God across Philadelphia because Sean is done." Yeah, sure. All the posters and bloggers and the public at large...the League of Women Voters and the Veterans of Foreign Wars, all come to this blog...
Sean, you don't speak for anyone other than for yourself...
And, you are a rude, defamatory person, too boot...
- Down in the Basement
Napoleon
The words you use do not mean what you think they mean.
I confess
I suffer from a chronic Napolean Dynamite Complex actually.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.
okayiknowthisisdumb andiknowrayisright
hope hope hope and all that
but, ugh:
"Rep. Rob Andrews, who supported Hillary Clinton throughout the primary season, disclosed he received a phone call shortly before the April 22 Pennsylvania primary from a top member of Clinton's organization and that the caller explicitly discussed a strategy of winning Jewish voters by exploiting tensions between Jews and African-Americans."
who cares?
racism is a huge stain on our nation. as is anti-semitism. and black-jewish strife is a bitch.
but, the whole point of my original post was "yea!" "obama won!" if you guys want to rain on that parade, go start your own thread. there are a lot of inspired, turned on, excited people right now, and i bet they'd like to talk about/think about that, and soon act on it.
That's fine
though I am a worrier (like Sam is a cheerleader). These are members of a party I am for better or worse invested in.
Anyway, on track: not to be a brat, and I know at least in part this is what folks are working on in non-internet-real-life with the revision of PFC, but do you want to actually say something about how this works? How to rise about seriously messed up politics? I mean, can you actually talk about the things you are saying to talk about beyond chiding?
i can't
i mean just cause i am literally 100% doing this full-time. all i can say is that Obama's nomination made me super excited and his wife is even more exciting to me. and like i already said in a quote from a MoveOn email, i sincerely believe that amazing things are possible.
i think Dem divide stuff is mostly overblown--there's been massive voter reg for Dems so far this year beyond any reasonable expectation, as as for real as i think racism is, i think most Dem voters will stay dem voters + we're going to see African-American turnout like never ever before (look at Wilson Goode Sr's first mayoral race as an indicator of how that looks in real life).
the questions I have of course are how life-changing a presidential election can ever be, and i have my doubts, but i have more hope now than ever before that this one will.
Good stuff
I do especially agree that Michelle is going to be a historic figure. Somebody whose intelligence and directness this country has needed for a long, long time.
WILL. TRY. TO. KEEP. MY. COOL.
-Sean
MrLuigi, my cat, actually only types half as badly as I do.